Saturday, February 18, 2012

Piece of Advice #102: Don't expect other people to work out your problems for you

In perusing my local Catholic magazine, I came across an advice column, and the resolution the columnist, Dr. Gelasia Marquez, recommended was so off the mark, I wanted to highlight and fisk it here:

My neighbors don’t pick up after their dog

Q. We share a back yard with our townhouse neighbors and they keep letting their dog out to ‘do his business’ but then don’t pick up after him. We’ve asked them nicely and it works for a few days, but then we’re back to the same problem.  
A. Among the 10 reasons an animal resource coalition lists for a dog’s owners to pick up after their dogs is this one – which I consider the most important: “Abandoned dog poop can host diseases and/or parasites that can infect other dogs who come into contact with it, or be transmitted to people who accidentally step in it and track it home. Particularly at risk, of course, are children who play on the ground.”
    This is a health issue and you have the right to enforce drastic solutions. However, before you do so, you might want to consider putting together an educational flier to distribute among the townhouse neighbors, and perhaps on local community bulletin boards. Approach your neighbor with it first, and mention the principle of the Golden Rule – would they want their children exposed to this kind of hazard?
    If this doesn’t work, you may need to file a complaint with the local health department.  


People tend to fall into a spectrum when it comes to pets - from the extreme hoarders who can live happily in a sea of excrement to germaphobes who cannot conceptualize living with anything that won't whip out a sanitizing wipe at the thought of a biological function occurring.  This lady seems to be a lot closer to the latter than the former.

While dog poop is indeed fecal matter and can have parasites and germs and be gross, canine-borne bacteria is hardly the number one medical problem we face as a society.  Additionally, the outdoors is full of critters who eat and poop and spread germs, and human immunity can generally take them on and win. Children are not mentioned in the original question, so babies eating dog poop off the grass is probably not the heart of the matter.

This is not a health issue.  This is a roommate issue.  The person positing the question shares space with other people who do not have the same priorities as she (or he) does.  They also do not appear to care overly much if she is upset by the dog poop and aren't afraid of what will happen if this continues to go unresolved.  This is the same kind of issue as living with a slobby roommate who never washes the dishes or with one who plays the same album (say, Billy Joel's Storm Front, featuring that hit single, "We Didn't Start the Fire") over and over and over and over and over again.

Appealing to the neighbors through the use of flyers (really, flyers?) is useless.  They don't care and won't insert themselves into this petty dispute.  Involving the local health department is even more absurd.  The person who takes the call may find it amusing to relate to her coworkers, but no one is going to come down and investigate the turds of a licensed pet living in a private townhouse.

Ultimately, this is going to be up to the complainant to resolve.  No one is going to take this on for her.  Most problems are solvable with the right amount of force, but in most situations force is inappropriate or inadvisable.  Yet Dr. Marquez seems to advocate for this when she writes:
This is a health issue and you have the right to enforce drastic solutions.
What kind of "drastic solution" does she mean?  Acting so crazy or dangerous that the neighbors became afraid of her?  Maybe leaving a roadkill opossum on the porch with a note that says, "This is what happens to opossums whose owners don't pick up their little possum poop."  This might motivate the neighbors a bit (to call the cops).  Or she could outright demand they pick up after their pet or nag and nag them all the time when they don't.  She could sell the townhouse and move to a single residence.  Or she could decide this is a minor issue, not worth the trouble, and either live with the situation or pick up the dog poop herself.

Personally, I would recommend blowing it off.  Being really controlling takes a lot of effort and is generally not very rewarding.  And the average American is a lot more at risk for Type II Diabetes than roundworms.

23 comments:

  1. I would recommend concentrating the poop in a single pile near the neighbor's side of the yard. Being able to see the offending matter as a single quantity may help that neighbor understand why someone else would object. In general however they sound like slobs and slobs militantly resist change that involves them being un-slobby for someone else.

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  2. "Or she could decide this is a minor issue, not worth the trouble, and either live with the situation or pick up the dog poop herself.

    Personally, I would recommend blowing it off. Being really controlling takes a lot of effort and is generally not very rewarding. And the average American is a lot more at risk for Type II Diabetes than roundworms. "

    Does not really make for good neighborly relations though does it?

    Why should she pick up the poop herself? So, she takes your advice and she becomes an appeaser, then the neighbor runs roughshod over her?

    You have to understand that not all people like dogs, nor dog feces..

    Apart from the health risk there is the aesthetics factor.. Dog poo all over the lawn ain't a good look. Also, have you ever trod in a dog poo and unknowingly traipsed through the house with it on your shoe??.. Not to mention the effort trying to get the poo out of the tracks in a boot for instance.

    My husband is a patio and deck builder... I cannot count the times that he has stepped in doggie poo whilst doing a job simply because the selfish and uncaring home owners never bothered to dispense of the dog poor before he started a job.

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  3. Kathy, this isn't really about dog poo or how gross it is, it's about living with people who don't have the same ideas and resist conforming to your (or other people's) expectations. It's just like living with roommates who never pick up their clothes or wash their dishes or who party late into the night every night or play terrible music all the time. Why should you have to listen to horrible music all the time? You shouldn't. The other choice is to force the issue which may or may not work out for you. You can't make other people be good neighbors. Escalate, appease, or leave, but decide first if you can deal with the consequences of any of those approaches. And don't expect anyone else to intervene because picking up other people's dog poo isn't fair.

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  4. She lives in a group of attached townhouses; these people are not her roommates. The obnoxious neighbors are harming the letter writer's ability to what the law calls "the quiet enjoyment" of her habitation. The dog poop is the same as loud music at 2 a.m., the writer should not have to endure it.

    Would you have dismissed these concerns if a man wrote that letter?

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  5. Actually, it is not at all clear what the sex of the complainant is. So, yes, would concern myself with problems that are more...problematic. As I said above, escalate, appease, or leave but figure out if it's worth it. Lots of times it isn't.

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  6. These people who don't respect others right to the enjoyment of their property are in the wrong. This is not a case of people having different standards and each has a right to choose their own standards. That occurs only on their private property.

    What this situation really represents is these neighbours (dog owners) (and GRERP's) presumption that they can do whatever they please without fear of retribution or violence against themselves as accountability for that behavior. They are free to act--- but others are presumed not free to respond. How they effect others is of no consequence because they are protected by 'the state' for their actions no matter how negative. This is a growing problem in this society.

    These neighbours will do what they want -- but God forbid I do!!!


    Not anyone else's responsibility to 'solve' my problem??--- okay... but then it is not anyone else right to limit the course of my actions to ensure MY rights are respected.

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  7. I'd collect the refuse for a few days and deliver it to the neighbors.

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  8. What this situation really represents is these neighbours (dog owners) (and GRERP's) presumption that they can do whatever they please without fear of retribution or violence against themselves as accountability for that behavior.

    In fact, this is NOT true. I have dogs, and I pick up after my dogs ON MY PRIVATE PROPERTY. I also do not play my music loud, and I pick up after myself and I pay my share and always have. And I shovel the snow off my neighbors' sidewalks and take care of their plants when they go on vacation.

    I suppose your answer, cecil henry, would be to kill the dog.

    Thank goodness I do have my own private property because some people have a loathing for animals I do not understand, but they are not permitted to practice that loathing on my dogs and on my property.

    Again, this is *NOT ABOUT DOGS* but about the willingness of people to hit the red button for code pale pink issues or expect others to do so for them.

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  9. I also think the ideas Brett Stevens and LBD contributed might be a good way to show the neighbor how offensive the dog poop is to the letter writer.

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  10. Wow GRERP, this is about the dog owners behavior on other peoples property, NOT about you. You are reading this issue and my response very poorly.

    Its surprising and foolish to respond personally to this, its about those neighbours. If the dog were killed, or simply taken away, those neighbours would scream murder and feel their rights have been severely impinged on--but felt nothing while my rights were being effected-- as long as I did nothing of consequence. Consideration of others is optional. Well, its probably based on how they (you) 'feel' about the complaining neighbours. (ie-- I'LL decide if they have a point). Except those 'feelings' are not relevant.

    YOU don't decide what a 'red button' issue on other peoples property-- that's exactly the issue. They are free to act--- but others are presumed not free to respond. If you overlook the neighbours behavior like this you defend their right to act how they wish and implicitly assume that I should limit my actions to certain bounds of civility even if my freedom is impinged upon. Perfect recipe for the type of narcissistic 'don't impinge on my rights--(even if it harms your rights)' that we see everywhere.

    By the way, I love dogs. Gerbils, fish, ponies too. (But I am responsible for my own pets only. Only my pets are extensions of myself (my ego) and what's important to me. Its the same for you and those neighbours.)

    I also love elephants (really!). But don't stick a couple in my sunroom and call me a hater when their presence is not acceptable to me. Take responsibility for the consequences of your actions--which (in part) entail other peoples reaction.

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  11. This is the same kind of issue as living with a ... roommate ... who plays the same album (say, Billy Joel's Storm Front, featuring that hit single, "We Didn't Start the Fire") over and over and over and over and over again.

    roommates who ... play terrible music all the time. Why should you have to listen to horrible music all the time? You shouldn't.

    I do believe we just got a glimpse into grerp's past.

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  12. Okay, I'm de-escalating, cecil henry, and trying to see your point. I have a migraine today, so perhaps my though processes are a little impinged.

    The problem here is that the property isn't private; it is shared. This means that the two neighbors must agree on how to use it, and they do not. I don't support the rights of people to do what they want regardless of the feelings of other people, but it is true that some people are difficult and hard to satisfy. Honestly, I think the neighbors with the dog should pick up after it; that's only considerate. However, on mutually shared property, disagreements about upkeep usually result in hostility and anger or one person doing more than her fair share or both. You can't make the other neighbor be the way you want them to be.

    Freedom is important, but so is getting along with others. You can force the issue of your rights, but they will resent you for it and you will not have good neighborly relations that way either. It's a fine line to straddle.

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  13. My two cents? If the doggie do bothers this person so much they should simply talk (in a nice reasonable tone of voice) to the neighbor and suggest hiring a popper scooper service (approx $15 a week in my area). The service stops by once a week (or more often if you pay more) and picks up the entire yards worth of dog poop.

    Alternately, the dog can be trained to do his/her business in a designated "dog run" area - for example on a small patch of white landscaping stones or river rocks. Then the urine is hosed off and solids can be picked up once daily in just a few minutes even if the dog "goes" three times. This compromise/solution in Chicago where shared yards with both children and dogs (and yet another neighbors grill) are common.

    You are correct, town homes are communal living spaces and having a snit fit with your neighbor will only create petty escalations and passive aggressive behaviors.

    Additionally calling the health department or police or whatever will only confirm you are a lunatic. Town homes are non profit corporations run by a Board of Directors. Check your CC&R or Dec & Bylaws for how/when the Board is elected. You could run for the Board with the suggestion that an Association wide pooper scooper service would be contracted (much like the landscaping) providing an attractive amenity for both dog owners and those with children (or germ-a-phobes). If other homeowners agree, you have solved a "problem" for everyone and increased feelings of community.

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  14. Sprinkle cayenne pepper around the yard. The dog will refuse to use it. :D

    say, Billy Joel's Storm Front, featuring that hit single, "We Didn't Start the Fire"

    Now that's annoying! I think I'd rather clean up dog poo.

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  15. Why not just scoop the doo into a pile and leave it on the neighbors' doorstep? That's a perfectly fair solution to the problem. The neighbors is clearly in the wrong and will almost certainly mend their ways after finding a smelly pile of doo on their doorstep. They'll be angry, of course, but deep down they know they are being inconsiderate, so they'll probably get over it before too long. If they don't they are just jerks and will never be good neighbors anyway.

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  16. The two sides to the issue seem to be:

    "I don't want doggy poo in the yard I have to share with my neighbors."

    versus

    "I agree in principle that I should pick up doggy poo, but I'm too lazy to do it."

    This is why shared living spaces should have clearly defined rules regarding pets.

    I'd suggest the best thing to do would be for Mr. "I don't want poo in the yard" to identify something that he does that drives his neighbor crazy. Then negotiate a trade.

    Grerp is right about this being a roommate issue. Living with someone is full of little annoyances you just have to get used to.

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  17. The interesting thing here is that Cecil says that Grerp is the one being inconsiderate, but he's the one that wants to force other people to act the way he would in their situation, while Grerp's opinion is basically that sometimes people will annoy you and you'll just have to resolve it peacefully.

    In fairness it might be that Cecil (and some of the other complaining posters) misread it as the neighbour's dog coming and pooping on the OP's own lawn rather than an issue with the level of cleanliness of a communal lawn. ("We share a back yard ...") These are actually quite different issues. This is the moral equivalent of one roommate that wants the kitchen benches wiped down after every meal, and another who doesn't care.

    I don't see a problem with the OP being frustrated about it and trying to get some advice, but I do think a lot of the responses are just silly.

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  18. I see a lot of replies criticizing Grerp without offering any concrete solutions. Cecil Henry, for instance, has been clear that he will force his reaction upon the neighbours and has left said reaction open to the readers' interpretation. From his tone it appears that his reaction will escalate the incident up to and including violence i.e. "it is not anyone else right to limit the course of my actions to ensure MY rights are respected." Grerp's solution is meant to determine if the ensuing fight will be worth it, whereas Cecil Henry advocates jumping right into and escalating the conflict. His way may win out in the end, but I would hate having the cops show up with sirens blaring and having to explain that it all started over some dog shit.

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  19. Don't have time to read all your posts, but from what I am seeing, I must respect it — plainly written and eminently sensible.

    Wish I knew more females to whom to pass it on. Not that they'd heed a single word of it.

    Anyhow — well done. You're an example.

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  20. Oh, gosh, Grerp, I never thought I'd disagree with you - no, I don't think some "other" should handle it, but considering the police have been called to our house because we very politely, but directly, told a neighbor to stop letting her very large dogs shit on our lawn rather than her own, I might have to ever so respectfully call "it's different" when it comes to dog shit v. random annoyance. When I park in the street, leave my trashcan out front, or fail to rake my leaves, I create a nuisance, but your kids won't step in those and track them into your house and ruin your carpet. When I let my dog shit on someone else's lawn, even if I technically share it with them, I have declared my abject disrespect for them. Maybe it's a Texas thing, but it is not small, and should not go unaddressed. Your dog shits on my lawn, that shit will be deposited on the windshield of your car. Down in the cowl. Like it's down in the rug at my house, since my kids walked through it. Losers.

    I'm actually very calm in real life. I just don't like dog turd. Amen.

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  21. Science project! Step 1: Build a catapult, Step 2: Gather poo, Step 3: Combine.

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