Wednesday, November 3, 2010

Piece of Advice #76: Don't have some other guy's baby and try to pass it off as your significant other's

*Note to my niece: I hope and trust that this piece of advice is not for you.

Most of the pieces of advice I have written have been pretty common sense.  It seems surreal that I even have to write the above one out, but let's peruse the recent high-profile case of director Andrew Douglas suing his ex for deliberately duping him about the paternity of her daughter and extracting hundreds of thousands of pounds in child support from him and not being at all contrite when this was exposed:
‘Of course I didn’t lie. I obviously didn’t think that he wasn’t her father,’ she said. ‘If he wants to be her father, he should provide for her. Isn’t that what’s fair?’
Dear greedy, duplicitous skank Ameena Meer: it would be fair if you told him up front that he was not the father and he chose to parent anyway.  However, given that you at least suspected he wasn't and, despite not being in a relationship with him, pressured him to marry you so as not to shame your Muslim parents, and, after you divorced him, you  blithely took your child out of the country he was living in, I'd say nothing about this was "fair."
fair adj. fair·er, fair·est : marked by impartiality and honesty, free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism
On display next: the major motion picture, Mamma Mia, whose plot revolves around a young woman's search for her father, one of three possible men her mother slept with in short succession some twenty odd years ago.  She wants him to walk her down the aisle.  Ignoring for a moment the fact that a father's main purpose in life is not to serve as a prop for the perfect wedding, there's the fact that this play/movie was written, acted, watched and enjoyed without any apparent outcry about the irresponsibility of a woman deliberately denying her daughter even the information about who her father was, let alone respecting and actively trying to involve him in her life.
From the Wikipedia synopsis: The issue of Sophie's parentage is left unsettled, as none of them have any idea whether they are actually her father. Everyone involved agrees that it does not matter which one of them her biological parent is, as Sophie loves all three and they are all happy to be "one-third of a father" and a part of her life at last.
Read the above paragraph again.   Everyone involved agrees that it does not matter which one of them her biological parent is.  That's right, the message of this thing is dads don't matter.  Kids can be successfully raised without them, and they themselves are happy to be considered interchangeable.  Too bad none of that is true.  I do find it interesting that the same people who ascribe to the above beliefs would be horrified if adoptive parents simply did not tell their children they were adopted.  It's strange how biology is of critical importance to a child's sense of self only when it does not inconvenience that child's biological and custodial mother.

Finally, let's take a peek at the views of Melanie McDonagh, a writer for The Spectator.  Recently she opined in "Who's the daddy?":
Now, a cotton-wool swab with a bit of saliva, plus a small fee, less than £200, can settle the matter. At a stroke, the one thing that women had going for them has been taken away, the one respect in which they had the last laugh over their husbands and lovers. DNA tests are an anti-feminist appliance of science, a change in the balance of power between the sexes that we’ve hardly come to terms with. And that holds true even though many women have the economic potential to provide for their children themselves.

The subject has resurfaced lately, courtesy of a story in the Daily Mail, about a married television presenter who for years had been paying for the support of a child conceived, as he thought, as a result of his relationship with a writer. It seems that after meeting the child for the first time, he asked for a DNA test; it duly turned out that he was not, after all, the father. Poor child...

Many men have, of course, ended up raising children who were not genetically their own, but really, does it matter? You can feel quite as much tenderness for a child you mistakenly think to be yours as for one who is...

A.C. Grayling, the philosopher, has written with feeling on this question this week, in an article for the Evening Standard. Noting that 4 per cent of men are, all unknowing, raising children who are not genetically theirs, according to a report in the Journal of Epidemiology and Human Health, he ponders the impact a DNA paternity test can have: ‘The result can be shattering, leading to divorce, marital violence, mental health difficulties for all parties including the children.’ Well, yes. Scientific certainty has produced clarity all right, and relieved any number of men of their moral obligations, but at God knows what cost in misery, recrimination and guilt.

Our generation sets a good deal of store by certain knowledge. And DNA tests have obvious advantages when it comes to identifying less happy elements of our heredity: congenital disease, for instance. But in making paternity conditional on a test rather than the say-so of the mother, it has removed from women a powerful instrument of choice. I’m not sure that many people are much happier for it.
 Dear Melanie: clearly you hate men and think they should have no say in life's most basic urge, reproducing one's self.  But just so you know, cuckolding was never a female right or privilege.  It was always wrong, always fraud, always cruel, always selfish.  A man has a right to know if a child is his.  A child has a right to know if a father is his.  A woman has no right to interfere there for her own convenience.  Women have all the other reproductive rights: birth control, abortion, single motherhood, abandonment on a firehouse's steps.  Isn't that enough?

Here's a tip for women who don't want the messy humiliation of determining paternity after the fact: sleep with just one man at a time.  I know that's hard, but, you know, it works pretty well.  The average woman's cycle is only 28 days long, so every four weeks or so you've got a built-in pass for more promiscuous wild oat sowing, but take it one guy at a time, 'kay?  If you fool a man into thinking your child is his and it comes out down the line that that child isn't, the resulting mess and emotional trauma is all your fault.  Yes, it's a lot better for children to have fathers, so pick one good man, reproduce with him, stay faithful to him, and work at keeping that relationship healthy.

38 comments:

  1. Here's a comment I left on the same piece at Worstall's Place (slightly expanded):

    Dear Lord, this is sickening on so many levels it’s hard to know where to begin.

    What about the actual biological father of the child, does he not get any say at all, or is it all down to the woman whether or not he is “suitable” ?

    And isn’t it fraud to extract money from someone under false pretences? This wouldn’t be so much of a problem if the father of the child didn’t traditionally support both the child and its mother. There seems to be quite a lot of moral hazard in this “father selection” process -- a strong incentive to select the father that works out best for the mother, not the child.

    Finally, and most damningly, I’d say any woman who bares a child of ambiguous paternity and contemplates fraud in this fashion should be the *last* person consulted in decisions about how and whom should raise it.

    Incidentally, I personally would have no trouble raising children that were not mine biologically. I would have a problem forming a family with a woman who lies about her sexual proclivities.

    By making this about the children, rather than the woman, Melanie Mcdonaugh distorts the real issue.

    ReplyDelete
  2. This is making me doubt the claim from the Roissysphere "No Ma'm-ers" that all, if not most women are evil creatures, with a dark black hole of hate where a heart should be.

    This will just further push men away from marriage and LTR's and will leave nice girls like many of my friends, and especially my baby sisters single and not loving it. Thank you feminists for liberating us.

    ReplyDelete
  3. That crazy hag isn't a "feminist" any more than Osama bin Laden is a "Muslim" or the KKK is a collection of "Christians." She's a fundamentalist who hates "others" and masquerades under the aegis of a philosophy that is fundamentally right.

    Feminism is supposed to be about the equality (not "sameness") of the sexes. That means that no one gender wields unfair power -- of defrauds -- the other gender.

    That's why it's okay to demand child support from a man who is a child's biological father. The corollary to that is that it's not okay to demand child support from the guy who is not the child's biological father.

    The whole point of Roe v. Wade is that parenthood is a choice. Defrauding men out of the same choice doesn't empower anyone. It's just evil.

    ReplyDelete
  4. LOL great title...


    side note, our country needs more women like you grerp :) need to find a girl cut from the same cloth to marry

    ReplyDelete
  5. Here's a tip for any young women out there who seriously wants to get married in this day and age:

    Offer to pay for a paternity test for any and all children you conceive with your husband.

    Trust me on this one. I am a guy.

    In this age of paternity tests of the Maury Show being broadcasted coast-to-coast, offering that to a guy WILL separate you from the rest (99%+) of female-kind, as well as show him you mean business, and are in the relationship/marriage for the long haul.

    Only women with something to hide would have anything against paternity testing.

    There should be mandatory paternity testing at birth without exception, and if no father is present, then not one penny of child support should be collected until a paternity test is confirmed.

    That one female's (I refuse to call her either a "lady" or a "woman", as she is neither of those.) words in that one, single article:

    "Many men have, of course, ended up raising children who were not genetically their own, but really, does it matter?"

    That one sentence will be quoted in history textbooks for hundreds, if not thousands of years to come. It will be translated into languages not-yet-spoken.

    And next to that quote will be the words: "This quote sums up why Western Civilization at the beginning of the 21st century Anno Domini eventually crumbled into ruin."

    ReplyDelete
  6. I do not agree with the idea of lying about a child's paternity. I think it's absolutely wrong for a woman to engage in this kind of pretense, which is incredibly damaging to everyone involved. At the same time, I do not agree with the concept that refusing to take a paternity test must automatically mean a woman has something to hide.

    If (I married and) my husband asked me to take a paternity test, I would definitely take one and provide him with the results. However, he wouldn’t get to make that demand in a vacuum. I would be absolutely furious. I would also expect him to deal with the implications of his request. He would have accused me of cheating and it would mean that he obviously doesn’t know me. It would take a great deal of work for us to gain confidence in each other again, if we managed to work past the issue at all.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I was so offended by Mamma Mia that I broke the DVD we had at home. I thought it was the worst kind of matriarchal crap.

    Quite simply, I won't have it in my home.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Anonymous 11:15 - my blushes. Thanks for the compliment. I hope you do find her.

    sconzey - It is very clearly fraud, although I'm not sure what the legal code says. Personally, I think she should have to pay back every penny. Every penny.

    Dream Puppy - I'm with you on the liberation. Wheeeee! Isn't this fun?!?

    David Collard - I didn't make it more than 20 minutes into Mamma Mia before I shut it off. Library copy.

    Octavia - I think in this environment, paternity testing should be mandatory, which would make it not a personal implication or accusation, merely another test at birth. Most mothers would have nothing to stress about, but a number of men would be off the hook for financial support - as men should be for children who are not theirs.

    ReplyDelete
  9. "Feminism is supposed to be about the equality (not "sameness") of the sexes. That means that no one gender wields unfair power -- of defrauds -- the other gender."

    Wish in one hand and crap in the other.....

    "That's why it's okay to demand child support from a man who is a child's biological father. The corollary to that is that it's not okay to demand child support from the guy who is not the child's biological father."

    Sounds good on paper, but the fact is that feminism inevitably leads to Socialism, female chauvinism, and moral relativism. When you allow for the idea that women are, or have been in oppressed in the West, which is a total fallacy,by the way, you always wind up in a position where you cannot tell the TRUTH about females,i.e. they play with dolls and not trucks because nature has made them that way, without being accused of "contributing to female oppression".

    The obvious solution is that feminism needs to be scrapped altogether, along with every other form of affirmative action and these groups need to be educated that EVERYBODY catches shit in life and feels like they're being picked on sometimes, it isn't always down to sexism or racism or ablism or whatever "ism" you like and that YOU are in control of your feelings, nobody else is responsible for them.

    ReplyDelete
  10. grerp

    My wife and I have the odd row (fight as Americans say). When we do, we seem to use it as an opportunity to get rid of things the other spouse has that we find offensive. That is what happened to Mamma Mia. I think I also broke some copies of CSI-Special Victims Unit on another occasion. I bought this for my wife one Xmas, and she watched the entire Series 5 or whatever over the holiday break. It nearly drove us all crazy.

    I have been reading your blog for some time. I think it is a gem.

    ReplyDelete
  11. It has been noted elsewhere that this McDonagh lady is a pro-life conservative Brit, so supposedly she is not a "feminist." That to me simply shows that feminism is not about women in the workplace versus women in the home, or pro-abortion versus anti-abortion - it's about entitlement versus fairness. Feminism is a system where women are superior and their needs and wants carry more weight than men's regardless of the situation. Unfortunately feminism exists in America's conservative churches as much as in its radical college campuses.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Puppy,

    "This will just further push men away from marriage and LTR's and will leave nice girls like many of my friends, and especially my baby sisters single and not loving it. Thank you feminists for liberating us. "

    I don't know if this is true...plenty of good people find partners despite paternity fraud being part of the landscape. Even with the outsized entitlement of so many modern women, I think few could abide actually lying about their child's father. The kinds of guys who would use this psycho's article as a reason to avoid women are either extremely jaded already from firsthand experience, or are fishing in pools where it's difficult to vet character in the first place (or vetting is discouraged).

    The key is to purge your posse of low-character wenches. I am serious - if they want good men, get the partiers and attention whores away from them. People, especially prospective men, will judge you by the company you keep, and as Dalrock has just pointed out the whispers are a powerful destabilizing force...any man worth having is going to examine a woman's friends to gauge her character.

    In other words, do not allow whores to be counted among ladies.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Grerp,

    You might want to write about this Oprah/CNN article by a single mom about "how to raise the men we'd want to marry." Lots of typical bromides about compassion and responsibility and accepting their "feminine side." No discussion of the need for a father, and of course nothing about raising daughters men would want to marry.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/11/03/o.raise.good.husband/index.html?hpt=Sbin

    ReplyDelete
  14. Badger Nation - I will take a look at the Oprah article. Sounds awful.

    ReplyDelete
  15. @Xander,

    "She's a fundamentalist who hates "others" and masquerades under the aegis of a philosophy that is fundamentally right. Feminism is supposed to be about...equality"

    Feminism from the get-go was never about equality, it is about promoting the autonomy and advantage of the female sex. Read the scribblings of the founding mothers of American feminism, Stanton in particular, if you don't believe me. And even if you disregard feminism's socio-political roots, there's no denying that modern feminism stands for anything but equality--or even equal treatment--of the sexes under the law.

    The assertion that feminism is about equality is flat out false on its face. Demonstrably incorrect.

    @ Badger,

    "You might want to write about this Oprah/CNN article by a single mom about "how to raise the men we'd want to marry.""

    I saw that article too. Nothing we haven't seen before. But the comments are most interesting and telling.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Grerp: I see your point about the benefits of making a paternity test mandatory. On the other hand, it would also be a statement that society lacks confidence in the integrity of women as a whole. Perhaps a law like that might be created at some point. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone sued on the grounds that it is sex-based discrimination.

    General comment: My view is that feminism is multifaceted, shaped by race, gender, socio-economic status, etc. Just as there are different kinds of republics, there are different kinds of feminism. So, for the sake of clarity, would those who are not in support of feminism like to point out which type of feminism is unacceptable? Or do some believe that there is only one solid definition of feminism, and the movement, in and of itself, is unacceptable? Also, are there those who believe that feminism has been of any benefit?

    ReplyDelete
  17. Octavia:

    "On the other hand, it would also be a statement that society lacks confidence in the integrity of women as a whole."

    Every law or regulation could be said to make that statement about everybody, man and woman.

    If you feel slighted as a woman, with all due respect, get used to it. I am constantly slighted as a man, and assumed to be a miscreant. This starts when you are a little boy.

    On feminism, I would quote the famous remark by the US Supreme Court judge, re obscenity, "I know it when I see it."

    ReplyDelete
  18. Octavia: It's not necessarily accusing you of cheating to ask for a paternity test. Since the dawn of time, men have been unsure about their children's DNA, simply because it's always been "take my word for it" on the most major undertaking of our life - child-rearing.

    Modern technology offers men the same peace of mind that women have taken for granted since before mankind evolved. Offering that peace of mind would be one of the greatest gifts you could make; if he asks for it, it's only natural that he'd want some certainty.

    Put it this way: what if you're husband could, without you ever knowing, turn you into the surrogate mother for his secretary's child? And what if you had seen other men do just that? No matter how much you love and trust someone, that concern would never go away.

    Besides removing whatever insult you feel after that explanation, mandatory testing would also have the benefit of reducing cheating in marriages - or at least making cheaters more careful about protection.

    As for feminism in general - the main benefit has been to the sex lives of frat boys. Secondary benefits include learning that women simply won't pick STEM work in large numbers despite incredible encouragement, more porn, and the way their careers have prevented women like Hilary Clinton from breeding above replacement rates.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Asking for paternity tests on your children would definitely stigmatize your wife as a "slut"; by asking for it, you're making it very obvious that you suspect her of cheating - why else would you ask? That's going to create some serious resentment that will probably harm the marriage. I'm not one to be too emotional, but that request would be like getting stabbed in the heart and not something I could easily brush off.

    But I agree that men have the right to be positive the child is actually theirs and some women do cheat and lie about parentage; that's a far worse offense.

    Solution: Pass a new law — automatic DNA testing at each birth. Removes the stigma and the awkwardness of raising this issue with your spouse and it is important to verify parentage in regards to genetic health records and child support issues. No man should be forced to support a child that is not his.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Re: mandatory paternity testing; my fiancee and I were talking about this and she pointed out that if it gets cheaper, health insurance companies might require it to ensure proper screening for genetic diseases.

    She agreed that if I requested it, she would be offended, but if the hospital, insurance company, or government required it, she'd be fine.

    Certainly, if not at birth, paternity should be tested automatically as part of any claim for child support in separated couples.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Learn some genetics, as there are some proxy paternity-test traits - so-called "Mendelian" traits in that they pass from parents to child in dominant-recessive patterns. Depending on the traits and the people, they can be used to either inculpate or exculpate paternity. They include:

    Albinism
    Cleft chin
    Cheek dimples
    Earlobes
    Earwax type
    Freckles
    Curved thumbs
    Sickle cell
    Widow's peak (pointed hairline)
    Blood type

    Apparently eye color is more complicated, but can be analyzed to establish suspicion.

    Obviously none of this is going to stand up in court, but the point is it can give a good reason to ask for a test without the "you think I'm a slut!" defense.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mendelian_traits_in_humans

    ReplyDelete
  22. David: I’m not the type of person who tells someone to “get used to it” when that person is concerned about an issue. Pointing out a problem is not the antithesis of being able to deal with that problem. Just because someone can have a solid existence under difficult circumstances doesn’t mean society should avoid improving those conditions. Furthermore, if your response to people who point out a problem is “deal with it,” then why are you even on Grerp blog? Overall, she’s giving great advice on how to make wise choices in life. With your reasoning, she should just let people stumble as they may.

    Bob: If people want to push for mandatory testing for paternity, by all means, do it. I don’t object to the paternity test in and of itself. I object to the mentality that’s often the drive behind it. I think that the atmosphere that’s present when a law is being crafted can make a great deal of difference. I understand why some people are angry. I just don’t believe that anger, especially when it’s unrestrained, has to be the impetus for change.

    Now, I usually avoid overstating my case for or case against a concept, idea, movement, etc. Definitely, there are significant problems with feminism. At the same time, given its multifaceted nature, the argument that feminism has primarily benefited frat boys is quite humorous.

    Are the men who are STEMs usually interested in women who are their counterparts? Or do the men who are STEMs also hunger for the same women who are attracted to cads? Also, does a man being a STEM, in and of itself, mean that the man will treat a woman well? And, don’t people argue against women choosing men on the basis of their occupations?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Octavia said:

    "I see your point about the benefits of making a paternity test mandatory. On the other hand, it would also be a statement that society lacks confidence in the integrity of women as a whole."

    Maybe society should lack confidence in women's integrity. Have you been paying attention?


    Octavia also said:

    "My view is that feminism is multifaceted, shaped by race, gender, socio-economic status, etc. Just as there are different kinds of republics, there are different kinds of feminism. So, for the sake of clarity, would those who are not in support of feminism like to point out which type of feminism is unacceptable?"

    I've heard the line about different types of feminism so many times that I'm beginning to think it's largely just a rhetorical tool used to pummel men in debates. If you disagree with the tenets of what is commonly considered to be feminism, just say you're not a feminist. Why qualify yourself as some specific type?

    ReplyDelete
  24. David Collard - thanks for your compliment. :) I am glad you like the blog.

    Octavia said:
    "General comment: My view is that feminism is multifaceted, shaped by race, gender, socio-economic status, etc. Just as there are different kinds of republics, there are different kinds of feminism. So, for the sake of clarity, would those who are not in support of feminism like to point out which type of feminism is unacceptable? Or do some believe that there is only one solid definition of feminism, and the movement, in and of itself, is unacceptable? Also, are there those who believe that feminism has been of any benefit?"

    In my view feminism isn't the only thing in play for what ails society, not at all. Since the Enlightenment Western culture has been grappling with how to integrate science with religion and its slow, inexorable conclusion has been to dump religion. But religious faith prior to the Enlightenment was woven to every area of life and untying those strands has left us with a frayed something, no longer entirely recognizable. Science hasn't and can't fill the gaps. I left this related remark at Ulysses's blog the other day:

    "Essentially I believe that man has certain needs beyond the basic essentials of food and shelter: the need for order, a framework for judgment and punishment, a way to celebrate the seasons, the beauty around him, and the milestones of life, a way of reinforcing his values and passing them on to further generations – religion meets all those needs and that is why you see it in every culture, amongst every kind of people. Even people who hate and despise religion come up with their own God-free religions like Environmentalism.

    This is all separate from Truth, but seemingly necessary to the human condition. We are in a very chaotic time right now as society has decided to more or less worship Autonomy and has decreed to all and sundry that it will be the salvation of us all and the road to happiness. The kicker is Autonomy is the anti-religion or at least a religion that has no order, no method for the group to celebrate life, hates judgment and punishment, and has nothing to pass on to future generations. So it’s basically empty."

    Add the decline of religion to the advance of technology and eventually you birth feminism. Modern feminism was impossible without the birth control pill and the birth control pill was impossible before technology and while religion was strong (all Christian denominations prohibited birth control before the Anglican Church allowed it under certain circumstances in 1930).

    Modern feminism would also have a different face without the rapid rise of materialism which grew from advertising - which itself exploited the knowledge gained from psychology (science). Advertising plays on the human trait of perpetual dissatisfaction and deliberately invites people to compare themselves to others and feel entitled to have the things that, let's face it, only the very wealthy can legitimately afford.

    I am not a feminist. I believe that both sexes have equal value, but that their strengths and weaknesses are different, and this should not be ignored or lied about. I also do not think that women can "have it all," and am angry that my entire generation was encouraged to believe this. Basically, I'm a pragmatist and am interested in a functional society and would like people, and specifically women, to act like adults with integrity and put the needs of their families before their own wants and desires. Feminism, I believe, has inverted/perverted that so that the focus is on the latter rather than the former.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Octavia, I was trying to say that women should get used to the kind of suspicion that men already endure. People ARE waking up to the fact that women are just as immoral as men, in their own way, and need to be kept honest, like men.

    The data on non-paternity are not as bad (10%) as some people claim, but men naturally fear it greatly. It is also a staple of progressive rhetoric that if you ban something, it will just go onto the black market. The same applies to paternity testing. The technology is not difficult to apply, and it will be applied. Not every technological development necessarily empowers women. Nor should it. A level playing field makes for a fair game, don't you think?

    As for the curious acronym STEMS. I am a STEM and you can see my attitudes. A datum, perhaps.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Paternity tests are already meaningless. By 2006 medical "ethicists" decided that cuckolded husbands must be lied to.

    The Conspiracy Against Cuckolds

    "There appears to be a consensus among medical professionals that husbands should not be told when they are not their wife’s child’s father."

    Since that's an "ethics" decision there's no law to repeal, no court case to overturn. It's not a government act, so it can propagate around the world unchecked. It's a silent failure so almost no one will ever know about the conspiracy of lies.

    There's only one defense against this. "Don't get married. Don't have children."

    ReplyDelete
  27. Anonymous, I think that ethical decision relates to public screening programs. There is nothing, on the other hand, to prevent a private clinic offering paternity testing to concerned husbands.

    ReplyDelete
  28. “St Louis: Maybe society should lack confidence in women's integrity. Have you been paying attention?”

    Why should society have a lack of confidence in women’s integrity? Explain.

    “Saint Louis: I've heard the line about different types of feminism so many times that I'm beginning to think it's largely just a rhetorical tool used to pummel men in debates. If you disagree with the tenets of what is commonly considered to be feminism, just say you're not a feminist. Why qualify yourself as some specific type?”

    Interesting. With your reasoning, I can look at certain blogs, see what the majority of posters write about women and believe that men in general “commonly consider” women to lack integrity and be nothing more than sperm receptacles. However, I realize that some men actually want to have fulfilling relationships with women and prefer not to smear an entire gender. I also know that some men take responsibility for their choices and consider that if they keep dating the same type of problematic women, it might not be women in general who have a problem. The concept of personal accountability seems to be kind of new for some people.

    And, there are different types of feminism. Even a half-hearted attempt at research will provide excellent sources. However, that would require some effort to look past the vitriol and become well-informed. You see, when you have actual facts, it’s easier to avoid getting pummeled in a debate, regardless of the topic…

    ReplyDelete
  29. Grerp: Just for the sake of clarity, do you believe that there is more than one type of feminism? If so, do you believe that there were any benefits from those various forms of feminism?

    David: To be clear, I never stated that paternity tests should be banned. There are instances where a paternity test is necessary. With that said, making it compulsory might have some repercussions many probably never considered. A nation that does this will send out an interesting message about what a country thinks of its women. “Visit [insert nation], where we just assume many of our women are whores!”

    By the way, I read the article that Grerp referenced. In instances like those, I don’t feel sorry for the plaintiff or the defendant. The only one really affected by it is that 17-year-old whose mother lied about her father and who is basically being publicly disowned by the man who she saw as her father.

    Now, I understand why men fear being lied to about paternity. I’m in favor of reasonable measures to reduce paternity fraud. I’m also in favor of all individuals taking responsibility for their choices in partners.

    What did you mean by these statements: “As for the curious acronym STEMS. I am a STEM and you can see my attitudes. A datum, perhaps.”

    ReplyDelete
  30. Octavia:

    I was referring to choosing STEM as a career, not choosing nerds for sex. I understand the general lack of interest in nerds has nothing to do with feminism, it has to do with human nature. Feminism just showed us that it can't entice women in large numbers to become female Dilberts.

    Arguing that asking for a paternity test from your wife is insulting, then claiming that making it mandatory is also insulting, puts a lot of guys in a catch-22. It's a poor argument anyway, for two reasons.

    First, every law is already enacted for the worst behaviors, anyway. What does it say about us as a nation that we require a law to prevent us from drinking and driving? Doesn't that say we are a nation of irresponsible drunks? Second, every other nation on earth thinks American women are whores, anyway.

    Saint Louis:

    Claiming there are many types of feminism *is* a rhetorical device, and a cheap one, but it's one that most of its adherents actually believe. Better to choose specific points, or just claim to reject all points, than to get drawn into that argument. Other ideologies also make similar claims, anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Yes, the "there are many feminisms" trope is an old one. It is a rhetorical trick.

    I am fairly sure that blood is taken routinely from newborn children for other purposes (test for phenylketonuria?) and this could easily be extended to a paternity test.

    As for American women mostly being whores, it certainly seems so from overseas. I was amused to read someone suggest recently that our Australian women are slutty. I think they are nothing to some American women. America seems to lead the world in exporting raunch, vulgarity and disgusting examples of unfeminine behaviour.

    ReplyDelete
  32. @David Collard.

    I wouldn't be so hard on the American women, I agree they are a low standard but no where as low as the Brits. Our Australian girls aren't angels, believe me.

    ReplyDelete
  33. MPT is a nice idea, but let's face it, it'll never happen, because the only victims of it's lack are men, and haven forefend somebody institute a law or policy that places any kind of suspicon on women, though. Laws and policies that presume men are rapists and pedophiles? Well, thats something else entirely right?

    As long as that's the case, nothing will ever be done.

    ReplyDelete
  34. @ Octavia

    “Visit [insert nation], where we just assume many of our women are whores!”

    Visit [insert nation], where we just assume many of our men are rapists!

    One of these statements ... reflects reality.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Some of the comments, such as insinuating and/or stating that [insert nationality] women are whores, make it difficult to have a constructive dialogue. It's the antithesis of trying to reach common ground between men and women, which I believe is a worthwhile goal. Of course, some of you might not actually have that goal. Some of you might just use the internet to vent and/or supporting others who are venting. If that's the case, so be it. Enjoy yourselves.

    If there are others who are open to having a constructive dialogue, I'd love that. And, by no means am I expecting everyone to agree with me...

    ReplyDelete
  36. *Feminism* is a social and political movement, and broadly speaking, specifies a set of beliefs. *Men* is not. Why compare the two, when the MRM is a much closer analogue?

    ReplyDelete
  37. You can definitely count me among the legions of rejected betas, by plain, shallow and materialistic 'dreamers.' Sure, they put out now and then, but their overwhelming sense of self-righteousness was nauseating.

    I am not interested in mocking these losers as they get their comeuppence. No, I am simply trying to shift cultural perception for the next generation of men so they don't get sucked into the hypergamy, emotional headgames that defines modern relationships.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Excellent, excellent article. But as pissed as I was about leaving the matter of Sophie's father unresolved in "Mamma Mia" (the movie did leave some strong hints about the identity), I don't think it was promoting the debasement of fathers; Sophie's mom didn't know who the dad was and was hiding from her past. Sophie desperately wanted a father, always had, and this was the time she decided to really push the issue, right before she began a new life. (At one point she sings, "Are you the hero of my dreams?" when talking to one of the men). I think the men became so attached to her that they didn't WANT to know in the end, and Sophie in turn didn't want to lose any of them. Since they all stuck around, I hope she found out eventually, but in the mean time I understand her desire to embrace them all to a certain level.

    Jennifer

    ReplyDelete